Template talk:Sidebar individual
Initial proposal I would like to propose a Sidebar Template for Characters. I have noticed that there are almost as many variations on the sidebar as there are characters. Obviously not all information will be available on every character, but we should still strive to make this as uniform as possible. I tried to search through as many different characters as possible to find what most of them have in common and give it some logical order. If more than one actor has played the role, I'm not sure whether we should make it as above or more like Jean-Luc Picard's, Keiko O'Brien's or Amanda Grayson's sidebar. Another problem is it doesn't really work for Data, The Doctor or any other non-biological character. But those have pretty solid sidebars anyways. I wanted to put this up for consensus and then maybe someone with a little more experience can help by actually creating the template. Also, if this is approved, how does it get implemented across the wiki? --Topher 13:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC) : This kind of comes across to me as a bit of overkill. I'm not sure the sidebar shouldn't be a summary of or substitute for the "personal life" section. --Alan del Beccio Most character articles have a sidebar very similar to this one already, but they are just not organized in the same order. All I am suggesting is that if a character has a sidebar (which most do and most contain the same information) that it all be uniform. If the purpose of the sidebar is not to give all this information then a lot of editing needs to be done to a lot of character sidebars to remove "extraneous" information. Most articles will not have a sidebar this long since we don't have canon information for each item for any single character. There are three categories that I agree might be a little unnecessary: Occupation, Rank, and Marital Status. Occupation can be gleaned from the article. You can see what rank a character is based on the latest picture caption. Marital Status is a little more fuzzy. Characters who were never married should not have "single" listed. This just seems strange. Married characters would be noticeable because Spouse would be filled in. However, a character like Katherine Pulaski has spouses with unknown names and Marital status has some pertinent information in it. --Topher 20:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC) ::"Uniformity" could also mean to remove entries from sidebars to the main text or at least changing the current content, though. ::Take the images, for example. Your suggestion allows up to three images, one "early", one "late", one "alternate actor". Why, for example, would we want to have different orders for these pictures on TOS and other character pages? Let's choose one or the other, but let's stick to that order throughout. Then again, if we're already talking about and deciding that, another option would be to just use one "typical" image instead of an "early" and a "late" one. This would lead to more uniformity in regard to minor characters, which we only have one image of anyway. Also, what about that "alternate actor" image. Do we really need it in the sidebar? Do we need it on top of two other images? Doesn't it break the POV, anyway? What if there are several "alternate" images? -- Cid Highwind 13:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC) I was just basing the images on what is already being done. I personally feel that it would be best to have them all the same. And by the same, I mean all "late" ones first. However, this is not the way the sidebars are currently being executed. That way, if the latest image is above the information, then underneath is a chronological viewing of the character. It doesn't really break POV by showing different actors playing the same character. You would have a picture of the actor as the character not just some random photo of the actor. Take Spock for example. He has been played not only by Nimoy, but was played by five different actors in addition to Nimoy during and will have one more actor play the character in . To have a picture of Nimoy as Spock from either his TNG appearance or from at the top and then a picture of Quinto as Spock underneath the info would not be breaking POV as long as the captions weren't "Nimoy as Spock" and "Quinto as Spock". As far as adding a picture of each of the actors that played Spock during ST:III, that is probably extraneous. Take a look at my example Spock sidebar to the right. A limit of one main "late/typical" image up top and two chronological pictures underneath would be as many as most characters would need. However, this does technically go against the MA Manual of Style that reads, "Sidebars should have no, one (at the top) or two (at the top and at the bottom) images." I admit that Amanda Grayson's sidebar is probably a little overkill. Four images for a relatively minor character is going overboard. Animated Series images and images from either alternate timelines, dreams/mental images (like the first Amanda pic), or holographic representations should not be included in the sidebar. Also, aside from the images, I just put out all the information that any of the sidebars I looked at had on them. If we want to scale back the scope of what goes into the sidebar, then by all means let's review it. The reason why I think a template is necessary is so that you can look up and down any character's sidebar and see everything in the same order with each category called the same thing in every article. ::What I meant re:POV is not that it would break our POV to simply have an alternate actor image there, but to identify it as such. If that isn't what you meant, then everything should be fine. Regarding the amount of images - if there are more than two images, then the nearby article body should probably be long enough to contain at least one of them, right? :) ::If we implement this sidebar, I'd like it to not have more than two images. The most prominent image (at the top) should then be one that's easily recognizable - not necessarily the first, last or any other specific timeframe, but one where even Joe Starwarsfan would say "Hey! That's character X!" ;) The other image should then be optional (for minor characters where only one image is necessary) and show (in that order) either the "most important other" actor playing the role, or the same actor under "most different" circumstances (for example, if Riker's top image is from TNG Season 5, then the other one should show him without beard, Season 1 or Nemesis). -- Cid Highwind 09:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC) :::The sidebar to the right looks good to me. Just my two 1/2 cents. --From Andoria with Love 06:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC) Cid, I'm glad we're on the same page with the POV. Only in the meta would an image be referred to as "alternate actor." The only issue I have with making the most prominent image the "easily recognizable" one is that it leaves it open to almost too much interpretation. Take Scotty for example. Some would argue that he is most recognizable as the thin clean-shaven red-shirted chief engineer. I would probably pick the heavier movie version. Which is "correct"? I would suggest that, particularly for TOS we choose whether we want the "movie version" or the "series version" since for the other casts the differences are not nearly as abundant. If we're trying to please Joe Starwarsfan, he probably skews a little younger and would have more recognition of the movie versions. But if we are concerned with Joe Public he would likely have a more diverse view and would mix and match depending on the character. Some would be recognizable either way (Kirk, Spock, McCoy). Others would be one way or the other based on your viewpoint. On another note, I am still hoping to sway you on this two image limit. Particularly for TOS, I think it is important to be able to have 3 images. The Scotty example is a good one. Once the new movie comes out next year, which would you leave off, series Scotty, first-six-films Scotty, or the new Scotty? Does anyone else have any opinions on the subject? Pretty much only been Cid and me talking about this. I would love to get some more opinions. --Topher 09:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC) Are there any more objections to this sidebar? Any more suggestions for this sidebar? Still looking for some sort of a consensus, which is not made by Cid and I discussing it and Alan mostly objecting to it on principle and Shran giving it the thumbs up. Where are all the other admins who usually weigh in on such things? --Topher 06:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC) :Three images sound fine to me, at least for TOS and perhaps Picard (As the actor who played Shinzon was a "young" Picard), for the most part in the sidebar, it probably is fine at two. The only other thing I can recomend is using the varible field code, so that any unknown field is not showing.--Terran Officer 22:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC) ::::: So, I'm no admin, but I've got two cents here... I've recently undertaken translating the TOS character articles into Esperanto and since I've got almost a clean slate to work with, I have also been troubled by the sidebars inconsistency. I'm mostly bugged by the family section. It just seems silly to list somebody's grandparents as if it's some sort of vital information. Spouses? Children? Maybe, but let's hope there's never a canon main character with fifty wives or one thousand babies that are all named on-screen. Not only that, but different species have different manners of bonding, right? The more than a betrothal, less than a marriage Vulcan thing seems to fit. Does T'Pring go in the sidebar? Location of death also seems to be something that seems like a logical fit to the character sidebar. Regarding images, it seems like the only way to go is multiple images. But it's possible that some lateral thoughts could be considered. Breaking away from the traditional sidebar image on top thinking... slideshow on top (not even sure of how that would be done via wikia); slightly smaller images in a horizontal series just under the character summary and not part of the sidebar at all; A top image as usual, but with a section of half- or quarter--sized images at the bottom (see sample (it looks like it could use a line to distinguish it as a gallery, though -- also the images should be of consistent aspect ratios or it looks just a wee bit sloppy as you can see). --Hoogamagoo 17:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC) I'm glad someone has finally put in some ideas on this subject again. Unfortunately this seems to have stalled out months ago and with little to no admin support for it, I'm afraid it's been fairly doomed. That said, I still find it a valid topic for discussion. The problem was no one was willing to help get it off the ground since it was met with such ambivalence. Not very many people saw a need for a standardized sidebar even though there are standardized sidebars for just about every other major topic/category. As for your example, I really like the gallery idea you've got going on. The only issue might be if you have an odd number of pictures for the bottom section. If, for example, you wanted to add a picture from TAS, you could do it as I did to the right and span two columns. I think that might add some difficult programming to the template. That's one of the reasons why I stopped pushing this. I didn't have the skills to finish it and there wasn't anyone stepping up to volunteer. I also appreciate the compromise of having fewer categories. It does, admittedly, streamline things. I was basically using what people had already done and standardized things. It was pretty cluttered before, but I was trying not to step on other archivists' toes. –Topher 09:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC) :::::I think I've got the Gallery programming figured (see wikitext). This is lacking a few of the potential parameters, but here's a basic attempt. You can see it in action (albeit in Esperanto) here. Basically, it works out this way. If there's only one bottom image, it dumps the word Gallery and makes a 200px image as before. If there are more than one image (up to 6), it's half sized, and the odd ones get their own row. }} | !colspan="2" Gallery - colspan="1" align="center" width="100px" colspan="1" align="center" width="100px" - } | colspan="1" align="center" width="60px" }}} } | colspan="1" align="center" width="60px" }}} | } | colspan="2" align="center" width="200px" }} - } | colspan="2" align="center" width="100px" }}} }} } | - colspan="1" align="center" width="100px" colspan="1" align="center" width="100px" - } | colspan="1" align="center" width="60px" }}} } | colspan="1" align="center" width="60px" }}} | } | - colspan="2" align="center" width="100px" }} - } | colspan="2" align="center" width="60px" }}} }} } | - colspan="1" align="center" width="100px" class="sb-right" colspan="1" align="center" width="100px" - } | class="sb-left" colspan="1" align="center" align="center" width="60px" }}} } | class="sb-right" colspan="1" align="center" width="60px" }}} | } | - colspan="2" align="center" width="100px" }} - } | class="sb-both" colspan="2" align="center" width="60px" }}} }} |} :::::So, what do y'all think of that. I'd put in the other params, but I'm sleepy now. The documentation for wikitext is a bit, ...um ... difficult to decipher sometimes... Hoogamagoo 23:36, 11 December 2007 (UTC) ::::: I just added the pre tags to show the code. Still on the learning curve, here. Hoogamagoo 13:31, 12 December 2007 (UTC) Is there a way to narrow it back down to the approximately the width of the top pic? It's a little too imposing for those of us used to the english version sidebars like actor, etc. – Topher 12:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC) :::::I officially declare nested tables within conditional statements in wikitext to be evil (or at least unintuitive -- egad, all those pipes and exclamation marks for pipes --who thought this was a good idea?"). With that noted, here is another attempt. It is now slender as requested. If there are any other issues with it, I suggest that somebody else take a crack at it, as I have had more than enough crack at this point. Again you can check it out here. }} | - colspan="2" align="center" - colspan="2" align="center" Gallery - align="center" width="85" align="center" width="85" - } | align="center" width="85" }}} } | align="center" width="85" }}} | } | colspan="2" align="center" width="190" }} - } | colspan="2" align="center" width="190" }}} }} } | - align="center" width="85" align="center" width="85" - } | align="center" width="85" }}} } | align="center" width="85" }}} | } | - colspan="2" align="center" width="200" }} - } | colspan="2" align="center" width="190" }}} }} } | - align="center" width="100" align="center" width="100" - } | class="sb-left" colspan="1" align="center" align="center" width="85" }}} } | class="sb-right" colspan="1" align="center" width="85" }}} | } | - colspan="2" align="center" width="190" }} - } | colspan="2" align="center" width="190" }}} |} }} |} :::::Hoogamagoo 20:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC) That looks much better! Great work, Hoogamagoo! Only thing I see is the "Spock (2268) pic is very far to the left. Or the Ambassador Spock pic is too far to the center, I can't tell which. The unintuitiveness you mentioned is likely why I never managed to get this done for the English wiki. Thank you for taking the time to do this. I hope we can round up some support on the english wiki and get this thing off the ground here. I think it clears up so many of the issues that the admins were having with it and makes it a viable template for the character pages. –Topher 02:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC) My initial proposal got very little response, but it could benefit this template now that it's been started. – Topher 05:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC) Two Suggestions Not a bad idea at all. I have two suggestions though. First, is there any way to remove the white space now created on either side of the sidebar? It looked better pre-template if the image stretched all the way to the edges of the siebar. Second, the actor line should be italics, as it's out of universe.– Cleanse 12:26, 20 April 2008 (UTC) In Universe Status The sidebar seems to be really out of tense for MA and seems to show everything in present tense. *Status - well, the general assumption is everyone is deceased. *Martial Status - Well...they're all dead...so they're not married. I know it's no big deal but I guess the question is Is that information necessary? What say you oh great community? – Morder 07:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC) :I'd hate to lose "Marital status" as we know that for many main characters. It would probably be best if we followed the example of starship listings and have - "Active (2380)" or whatever. So basically their last known status. The same could go with marital status ie. "Divorced (2350)" etc. – Cleanse 08:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC) I was actually going to post that just now since I saw it on a couple pages so I support something like that. :) – Morder 10:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)